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Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
http://www.classicshell.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6855		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Anixx [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Just wonder.
Author:  Weboh [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Why do you say it is? Awhile ago they got mad that Classic Shell was including their logo with it (so that Windows 8 users could have a start button with the Windows logo). That's long passed now though. Windows 8.1 had a start button so there was no reason for Classic Shell to include one anyway. I haven't heard of anything since then.
Author:  Gaurav [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
He's probably asking about how Windows 10 Anniversary Update rudely uninstalls Classic Shell and leaves its in a broken state with a message in the Action Center. The average user has no idea how to fix it.
Author:  Weboh [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Ouch. Yeah, Windows 10 likes uninstalling programs that are "out of date" or "security risks." AKA programs MS doesn't like. That's another reason not to have Windows 10. I hope Microsoft stops going down this route. No idea what I'll do once support for Windows 7 ends.
Author:  Splitwirez [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Weboh wrote:
Ouch. Yeah, Windows 10 likes uninstalling programs that are "out of date" or "security risks." AKA programs MS doesn't like. That's another reason not to have Windows 10. I hope Microsoft stops going down this route. No idea what I'll do once support for Windows 7 ends.


I'd say go to 8.1 - Classic Shell and OldNewExplorer are really all you need to turn it into a faster, uglier Windows 7 :lol:

(Ofc there are more things you can do, but those are kinda the biggest aspects of it >.> )

And now...the wait for ReactOS to become viable begins ._.
Author:  CoronaTheDragon [ Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
I don't know, honest. When 7 support ends, screw it. I'm going to Mac.
Author:  Weboh [ Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
That won't work either. Mac is going the same way as Windows with a focus on taking customization away (though it's been that way for a long time...). There's always running a Linux distro for web and then running all your programs in a Windows VM...
Author:  Splitwirez [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
I know what I plan to do: Stick to Windows 8.1 for as long as possible. Then, once that stops being feasible...
Author:  Jcee [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
reactOS (atleast as of 6 months ago) was so damn unstable, that I would rather stick with XP :P but maybe by the time windows 8.1 looses software support in 2-3 years... who knows :P
What Id like to see is a true binary fusion of the 2, but that would require you purchase the windows version they decided to fuse the OS with :P
Author:  Splitwirez [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Jcee wrote:
reactOS (atleast as of 6 months ago) was so damn unstable, that I would rather stick with XP :P
It is kinda unstable. That having been said, I'd still take it over 10.



Jcee wrote:
but maybe by the time windows 8.1 looses software support in 2-3 years... who knows :P
>implying 2023 is 2-3 years away
u w0t m8

Jcee wrote:
What Id like to see is a true binary fusion of the 2, but that would require you purchase the windows version they decided to fuse the OS with :P
w0t
Author:  Jcee [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
"Windows 8.1 falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8, and will reach end of Mainstream Support on January 9, 2018, and end of Extended Support on January 10, 2023." https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/lifecycle-windows81-faq?wa=wsignin1.0
2018 is 2 years.... Extended support is for businesses I believe

A true windows shell... IE you take windows, you scrap explorer.exe, and all the built in stuff.. (maintaining .exe and driver support) and re-code the rest as an open source 'patch' The user then buys (or downgrades) to X version of windows. and applies your 'patch' Something like this would be complicated enough that it would likely only support a single version of windows (which the user would be tasked with pre-installing, through legal or other means)
Author:  Splitwirez [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
If Extended Support is for businesses only, then why did all the consumers wait until April 8th, 2014 before they started crying and making R.I.P. Windows XP videos? :lol:
Author:  Jcee [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
because consumers can still use enterprise versions? Though I believe basic security patches are pushed through to all versions:


Quote:
Mainstream Support
This is the first phase of support that Microsoft provides for most of its products and services. It lasts for five years and includes the following:
  • Incident support which includes no charge, paid and warranty claims.
  • Security updates
  • Ability to request hotfixes that are not security related
Extended Support
This stage comes right after Mainstream Support and lasts for five years as well. It includes the following elements of support:
  • Paid support incidents
  • Security updates (no additional cost)
  • If you want non-security related hotfixes then you must purchase Extended Hotfix Support and pay for each fix requested
  • Extended Hotfix Support is not available for consumer desktop OS’s.
During the extended support phase there are some caveats:
  • Microsoft will not accept requests for warranty support, design changes, or new features during the Extended Support phase
  • Extended Support is not available for Consumer, Consumer Hardware, or Multimedia products
  • Enrollment in a maintenance program may be required to receive these benefits for certain products


http://winsupersite.com/microsoft/understanding-basics-microsoft-s-mainstream-vs-extended-support
Author:  Weboh [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Extended support means no new feature updates. Nobody here cares though, because that means making it more like Windows 10.
Author:  Splitwirez [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Well in any case, I haven't used Windows update since before Windows 10 first came out and I will likely never do so again, so perhaps it'd be better to wait until either ReactOS is viable or Windows 8.1 isn't, whichever comes first.

Idk...but I never want to have to live with Windows 10, that's for sure...
Author:  Jcee [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
there is no date the OS will simply refuse to boot... so you could use 8.1 indefinitely :P. You would just need to torrent a copy of the latest service-pack if you needed to reinstall, once microsoft stops sharing the files :P
Author:  Splitwirez [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Jcee wrote:
there is no date the OS will simply refuse to boot... so you could use 8.1 indefinitely :P. You would just need to torrent a copy of the latest service-pack if you needed to reinstall, once microsoft stops sharing the files :P


I never said anything about timebombs. But software developers will only support Windows 7 and 8.1 for so long.
Author:  Weboh [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Splitwirez wrote:
Jcee wrote:
there is no date the OS will simply refuse to boot... so you could use 8.1 indefinitely :P. You would just need to torrent a copy of the latest service-pack if you needed to reinstall, once microsoft stops sharing the files :P


I never said anything about timebombs. But software developers will only support Windows 7 and 8.1 for so long.
That is a point. But the only thing you have to really worry about dropped support for is web browsers. Like, who cares if you can't get the newest version of Office or something? The older version works just fine. I don't use many programs that are the absolute newest version. Someone just needs to make a program that routes your internet connection through a Linux VM that has a new web browser. I'd be set for life with that.
Author:  Jcee [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
most software still runs on windows XP.. exceptions being things that hook into the system... or require something like DX11 or later... you can still install 90% of steam games on an xp machine, and probably 80% of regular software too...
Author:  Splitwirez [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Weboh wrote:
That is a point. But the only thing you have to really worry about dropped support for is web browsers. Like, who cares if you can't get the newest version of Office or something? The older version works just fine. I don't use many programs that are the absolute newest version. Someone just needs to make a program that routes your internet connection through a Linux VM that has a new web browser. I'd be set for life with that.

I wouldn't want any version of Office newer than 2010 - I need a suite that doesn't burn my eyes :lol:


Jcee wrote:
most software still runs on windows XP.. exceptions being things that hook into the system... or require something like DX11 or later... you can still install 90% of steam games on an xp machine, and probably 80% of regular software too...

Uhhhhhhh

-Versions of paint.NET new enough that I can use them
-Classic Shell
-Windows 8.1 Visual Styles
-WindowBlinds 8
-Desktop Window Manager
I need stuff that doesn't run on XP, k?
Author:  Jcee [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
and all of that stuff has versions that run on windows 8 ;) even in 10 years.. even if the new versions of that software doesn't, the old ones still will.
also of that list you mentioned.. I doubt any of them would run on react OS either...
Author:  Splitwirez [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Jcee wrote:
and all of that stuff has versions that run on windows 8 ;) even in 10 years.. even if the new versions of that software doesn't, the old ones still will.

Yes, I know. But what happens when my current computer dies and I can't get the old versions?


Jcee wrote:
also of that list you mentioned.. I doubt any of them would run on react OS either...

They've been clear that they're going to finish recreating NT 5.1, then move to NT 6.x, so while that may be true of ReactOS in its current form, it won't be forever.
Author:  Weboh [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Splitwirez wrote:
Jcee wrote:
most software still runs on windows XP.. exceptions being things that hook into the system... or require something like DX11 or later... you can still install 90% of steam games on an xp machine, and probably 80% of regular software too...

Uhhhhhhh

-Versions of paint.NET new enough that I can use them
-Classic Shell
-Windows 8.1 Visual Styles
-WindowBlinds 8
-Desktop Window Manager
I need stuff that doesn't run on XP, k?

I'm not going to argue you should use Windows XP, nor do I doubt you use programs that don't work on XP. However, these programs aren't a good example of that.
  • Classic Shell: Not needed because you have a classic start menu already.
  • Windows 8.1 Visual Styles: There are a whoooole lot more Windows XP visual styles.
  • WindowsBlinds 8: Ditto. Plus, WindowsBlinds for XP integrates with Windows' theme management!
  • DWM: You need this? There are many free programs for XP that give transparency and Aero snap. And most of them do it using less resources than Aero.

    Paint.net obviously matters to you. I wouldn't have figured it could change that much in three years. I don't see that many features added. That's what I was saying where it's hard to see the Newest! and Best! being that much better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (that's why subscription services are so popular with developers these days: There's no reason to upgrade otherwise).
Author:  Weboh [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Splitwirez wrote:
Jcee wrote:
and all of that stuff has versions that run on windows 8 ;) even in 10 years.. even if the new versions of that software doesn't, the old ones still will.

Yes, I know. But what happens when my current computer dies and I can't get the old versions?

Go to oldversion.com. Or Google for older versions. And make backups of course.
Author:  Splitwirez [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Weboh wrote:
Classic Shell: Not needed because you have a classic start menu already.

I use the Windows 7 style, plus Classic Shell's skinning flexibility is unmatched. No native Visual Style or WindowBlinds theme can beat it, and neither can other Menu Replacements, AFAIK (Except ViStart, but ViStart is terrible in every other aspect, so that's not really a solution).

Weboh wrote:
Windows 8.1 Visual Styles: There are a whoooole lot more Windows XP visual styles.

I was talking about making them. XP's theme market is already oversaturated, while 8.1 is kinda desperate. Mind you, that could be a moot point eventually, but for now, it remains.

Weboh wrote:
WindowsBlinds 8: Ditto. Plus, WindowsBlinds for XP integrates with Windows' theme management!

Ditto for the problem with WindowBlinds as well. Plus there are no versions of WindowBlinds left which work on XP and haven't expired.

Weboh wrote:
DWM: You need this? There are many free programs for XP that give transparency and Aero snap. And most of them do it using less resources than Aero.

DWMAPI, Visual Style integration, Aero peek, taskbar thumbnails, Windows Flip with thumbnails.

Also, unlike those tools you mentioned, DWM is actually somewhat stable and functional. Unless you were talking about something better than TrueTransparency and BorderSkin, in which case, I'm all ears O.O

Weboh wrote:
Paint.net obviously matters to you. I wouldn't have figured it could change that much in three years. I don't see that many features added. That's what I was saying where it's hard to see the Newest! and Best! being that much better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (that's why subscription services are so popular with developers these days: There's no reason to upgrade otherwise).

4.x changed and improved the keyboard shortcuts. That's really the biggest issue.





...now can somebody remind me why we're arguing about this please? :lol:
Author:  Jcee [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Just a headsup my point wasnt to switch to XP, it was simply that xp is still fairly supported... something that should be true of windows 8.1 for years after its 'end' (even after 2023) the only issue is security... but who knows.. maybe by then windows 10 becomes a decent Operating system, or they create an acceptable replacement :)
Author:  Anixx [ Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Splitwirez wrote:
Jcee wrote:
there is no date the OS will simply refuse to boot... so you could use 8.1 indefinitely :P. You would just need to torrent a copy of the latest service-pack if you needed to reinstall, once microsoft stops sharing the files :P


I never said anything about timebombs. But software developers will only support Windows 7 and 8.1 for so long.


Yes. But one good news is that Win10 does not change the Win32 APIs significantly because MS wants to deprecate it. This means, all future classical apps will be basically compatible with Win8.1 and Win7.
Author:  Anixx [ Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why Microsoft is waging war on Classic Shell?
Weboh wrote:
Splitwirez wrote:
  • DWM: You need this? There are many free programs for XP that give transparency and Aero snap. And most of them do it using less resources than Aero.


I need it. I hate tearing. Honestly there was a way to get rid of tearing under XP that I used. One needs an old Nvidia hardware and the old driver and D-Sub connection with monitor. Then there was a checkbox in dialog. But I now have AMD and my monitor has too big resolution for D-SUB.
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